The Viable College Market Interview

Tommy Burton finished his second solo album and I jumped on the interview truck with him. The interview went as follows:

Johnny Winters: Hi, Tommy.

Tommy Burton: Hey, Johnny. Good to talk to you again.

JW: First of all, I'm listening to the new Grandaddy CD for the first time in the background while doing this interview, so I'm feeling especially music-happy.

TB: It's a great record, isn't it? The first track can bring tears to my eyes.

JW: But probably not as happy as when I received a copy of your new album. I love it so far.

TB: Well... No need to kiss butt. Thanks. I like it, myself. I'm pleased with the way it turned out.

JW: This is your second solo album. And this is, essentially, our first interview. We did one when the first one came out, but it got destroyed in a fire before I had a chance to publish it.

TB: Fire? That stinks. Maybe it was for the better that it's gone. I can't even remember what I said the last time we talked. Sucks about the fire, though. Did you lose any records?

JW: I lost my birth certificate and some of my Bazooka Joe wrapper collection.

TB: Bazooka Joe. No T-shirt for you.

JW: It was a scholarly collection--I don't even like Bazooka Joe. The gum or the comics.

TB: Have to start all over.

JW: So let's talk first of all about your solo career in general. How does it differ from your work in Lately David?

TB: Well, I never really considered it a solo career before this record. The first record was a fluke. It wasn't supposed to be a solo record. It was a collection of demos that Rusty finished off and released on his own label. It was like my arm was twisted into a solo thing.

JW: Rusty released the album behind your back or what?

TB: Well, it wasn't behind my back. He just let these demos sit on his computer for a few months and decided that it might be fun to add some stuff to them. We ended up liking the results enough to release them. It's an interesting record. I don't know how good it is, but it is interesting. It has its moments. But I approached this project with a bit more unity. I went into it thinking that it was going to be a record, so I took great care into making sure that the performances were a little tighter. I also made sure that the songs made a lot more sense. It's different from Lately David because it's way more low key.
JW: Besides the tightness of the performances, what different approaches did you take on this one different from the first one? Was it still stuff piled on demos, or something else?

TB: It was stuff piled on demos. But the demos were more produced. We took greater care in recording them. I also added more vocals and harmonies to the tracks. I gave Rusty something a little more to work with. I also was a bit more hands-on during the recording process. The first one was like me emptying my closet of this little backlog of songs I had accumulated. I actually picked the songs for this one and had a clearer idea of what it was going to be. In the end, I gave it all to Rusty, so it is he who made it what it is. I just made sure that he had something more to work with. Plus, I think the overall songs are of a better quality.

JW: How do you decide what to use for Lately David and what to use for Tommy Burton?

TB: Lately David is trying to finish up our second album. It looks like I will have four songs on this one. I basically left those behind. One of those, "Forever," appeared on the first solo record. The rest are all new. The twelve songs I did for this album are ones that Lately David hasn't looked at yet. I think that Lately David is going in a particular direction as far as style is concerned. I write all types of songs. Basically, if the rest of the band takes a liking to one of my songs, we will do it. It will be very interesting if we end up doing any from this album. I kind of hope that we do, because I think we would take them in a completely different direction than the way they sound here. The Lately David recording of "Forever" is very different to the solo version. I like both of them, they are just different. There's no real approach. It's just a matter of doing what songs we like. I find myself trying to write more for Lately David, but I also realize that there are some songs that just aren't appropriate for us right now.

JW: Would you just say you write whatever you feel like, and then the songs get decided on from there? Where they go?

TB: I just write. I recently wrote a song called "William The Conqueror" that will probably not appear anywhere ever. It's basically a rant against the current administration's policy of trying to enforce democracy in other parts of the world. It certainly wasn't appropriate for the collection of songs that make up this solo record, and it's way too political for Lately David. I don't know what's to become of it. So, yes, I write what I feel, then I present them to whoever is around. If they pass my initial test, it's likely that someone else will hear it. If it passes their test, then who knows? Songs are just songs. I write them. After that, it can go anywhere.

JW: Maybe you should form a Political Tommy band. Isn't that what you and your crew do: make bands appropriate for the songs, instead of vice-versa?

TB: I doubt it. I'm spread thin enough for yet another project. We're even talking about trying to get The Naked Donnas to do something. Besides I really don't care enough about politics to form an entire project specifically for it.

JW: Yeah, politics are stupid. The war's over anyway. You missed that boat. Speaking of the crew, how does it feel releasing your albums through Love and Letters Music, since it's -- before you -- been so Rusty Spell-centric?

TB: I think it's very appropriate. It keeps the solo thing very separate from the Lately David thing, for one. Also, with Rusty as producer, it certainly has his musical stamp all over it. I think this stuff deserves to be heard and I'm really glad that he is willing to release it.

JW: So before we get into the songs, let's talk about the packaging, album title, and all the stuff you first see when you pick up the record at Tower. Whichever order you see fit.

TB: Tower? I wish. Danny took some photos of me for Love and Letters. Rusty used those photos for the cover and packaging. We also had longtime friend Jason Bell draw a really cool comic book drawing of me as a superhero called Tommy Turbo. We're planning on doing something with that, but it just didn't fit with what we were going for on this record. The title has been something I have been saying for years in reference to The Beastie Boys. The Beasties found a second life with the college crowd in the early 90s, therefore I called them a "viable college market." For the longest time, I was calling the record Back To The Clique. Viable College Market reared its ugly head and made the cut. I wasn't too keen on giving the record a title after one of the songs. Everything just worked.

JW: Do you really think it's a viable college market, or is that just a clever title? And if not a college market, what you think your market might be, or can you even answer that?

TB: I don't know about these things. They happen to be a collection of songs that I'm quite proud of. The title just worked for me. I have no idea what my market might be. I don't think the music I write and create is very marketable. So, it's probably a joke. Like almost everything else on Love and Letters.

JW: So let's move on to the songs. "Back to the Clique." High school remembrances?

TB: Perhaps. I was listening to Todd Rundgren. He has a song called "I'm In The Clique." It got me to thinking about how funny those things are. I think high school is like a mini-world within itself. At least my high school was. It's all about finding whatever group you fit in with and sticking with it. It's so important to find out who you are.

JW: I think all high schools are like that, and the world in general. Do you see yourself in a particular clique? I mean now, not in high school. You don't have to bring up high school if it's too painful, like mine was. And I'm unclear about the idea of getting back to the clique. Assuming someone left it?

TB: High school was okay for me. We had a ten year reunion recently. I didn't go, but not for painful reasons. I just didn't go. It's funny. Rusty and I went to high school together and we always considered ourselves "floaters." This means that we were able to gel with whatever group we happened to be hanging out with at the time. I guess, in a way, we were our own clique. I don't know if I'm in a clique today other than the one I was in in high school. It extended in my college years, but it's the same core group, I suppose. The singer of the song is getting back to the clique because he has sat out for so long that he's ready to get out and experience life. Experience things with a group of people. Back to the good life.

JW: Ah, Weezer.

TB: Weezer is great.

JW: It's sort of a rock and roll idea anyway, I suppose... all these ties to teenagerdom and high school. And you seem to be working in a old fashioned rock and roll tradition--in a slightly new way, of course.

TB: I'm an old-fashioned rock and roller. Trying to express that old angst in a new way. That's what it's always been about.

JW: It's a good opener. I probably prefer lively openers.

TB: I think it kicks things off very nicely.

JW: Lindsay is your sister, yes? The star of "Lindsay's Alright"?

TB: You've done your research.

JW: I think I met her once. Someone who looked like you anyway--as a girl. Someone once said that "all right" is about the highest honor you can give to anything in a rock song.

TB: My sister and I have had many ups and downs, but today we have a respect for each other. We went through similar shit in very different ways. She was always the rebel spirit, I was always the good little boy. At the end of the day, she turned out fine. In many ways, better than I did. She's got a good head on her shoulders, but she also does things the way she wants to. Marches to the beat of her own drummer. She's alright because she is going to make it. I have a lot of respect for my little sister.

JW: I suppose the song speaks for itself. Unless you have something you want to say about it.

TB: The song is full of several personal references that I doubt anyone else will get. She gets them. I wrote it for her anyway. Matter of fact, I took some of them out because they were too personal. I tried to keep it a little ambiguous.

JW: "I Turned Around" seems to be your version of Nesmithy country.

TB: Guilty. I was trying to write a very simple song with something to say. That was the key to every song on this record. I was really striving for utter simplicity. Country music is very simple, yet it can be remarkably emotional and deep. I know I didn't pull it off, but the song is lots of fun. I even probably sang it like Nez. I'm a huge Michael Nesmith fan, so it was easy to slip into that. Not quite wordy enough for Nez, though.

JW: Not enough propinquity.

TB: Right.

JW: Which is a good thing.

TB: Maybe. It's good for me.

JW: You definitely went into a twang, which I like. I get bored of voices easy, so it's good to switch up now and then, even if it's artificially. Or especially if it's artificially.

TB: Well, I was listening to the record the other day and asking myself, "Why the hell do I sing like that? I don't speak that way." I'm very self conscious of my singing. I don't really think that I'm capable of sustaining an entire record with my voice. I just don't think I'm a good enough singer. I've gotten a little better through the years, but nowhere near a true vocalist. I suppose that I still haven't really found my voice.

JW: No one much sings like they talk, except Kenny Rogers. "Lie To Me" seems to be an even more extreme version of someone putting their hands over their ears and saying "I'm not listening!" when someone's saying something they don't want to hear.

TB: That's a great analogy. It's exactly what it is. I guess they'd rather fake a relationship in the hopes that they will find themselves in love rather than break it off. I love that song. It turned out great.

JW: I like the many Tommies screaming at us. And you should probably talk about the corny (in a good way) harmony-breakdown section. Oh, and the talk section.

TB: That's funny. Dave Rice was listening to it and just laughed. In the middle of this pop song, you get this cheesy, almost bluegrass breakdown. Like, "What the fuck was that?" In reality, it was just me and Rusty getting carried away during the recording. We just started laying these different vocals in. I think there's four part harmony in the end. It comes from left field, which is what I like about it.

JW: It seems to fit, though. I couldn't imagine the song without it.

TB: I was worried about the talking, but it just seemed to stress the point. I think I did a fine enough performance that it works. I think it's convincing. How do you like it?

JW: I like it. It's got echo as its safety net, in case someone doesn't like it. You can't argue with echo.

TB: Sure.

JW: There's not enough spoken word in pop music these days.

TB: I agree! I'm here to fill that void.

JW: "Another Love Song" almost seems like a sequel to "Lie To Me," what with it's talk of pretending.

TB: It was written around the same time. I can't remember which song came first, but I'm positive that I was exploring the same emotions. I guess I think that it's interesting that someone would convince themselves that they love somebody if they stick with that person long enough. I was also trying a bunch of old cliches, hence the title and some of the lyrics. Maybe I was trying to deflate some of them too.

JW: You seem to be about deflating songs while sincerely writing them. I always go back to one of your really early songs, "Etc." A somewhat sincere -- maybe? -- song that ends up saying "Et cetera cetera, happy."

TB: Yeah. I listen to so much pop music that I suppose that I hear the same things. I agree, but don't care enough to add anything new to these things. So, I guess I just echo them.

JW: As I said, you can’t argue with echo. You agree with the pop songs?

TB: Most of them, yeah. The ones I listen to, anyway.

JW: Do you also think there is some amount of ridiculousness in them, or are you just embarrassed that you are echoing them? I'm just trying to figure out where the deflation comes from. Something I've been interested in for a while now, as you probably know. Which is why I stick close to the 'nikcuS Productions team: a group that seems to both love and make fun of at the same time.

TB: There's nothing ridiculous about love, be it falling in or out of it. It's a very serious thing. It only seems shallow on the surface, but the emotions are very deep and real. "Be My Baby" is a perfect pop song, but on the surface it looks very shallow. And because I am not adding anything to them, it comes across as a deflation or blowing up of these emotions. I'm saying, "Yeah, I've felt this way, too, so right back at you!" Plus, the best way for people to deal with very serious things is to simply blow them off. Rusty and I seem to not be able to anything serious without going behind it and destroying it. Listen to the bonus track on the album. It's a parody of "Lindsay's Alright," one of the more serious songs on the record and we are there just doing all the cliches rolled into one. It's a hard call. Are we being funny or serious? I think it's a perfect mixture of both. We are trying to say not to take us too seriously as we are telling you these very serious things. Rusty is way better at it that I am. He writes the cheesiest songs, yet they have great depth. I love it.

JW: It makes sense to me in various ways, even if I can't explain it.

TB: I can't properly explain it either. I guess you get it or you don't.

JW: "Out of My Leage" reminds me of another high-schoolish song.

TB: It's like an anthem. Bruce Springsteen "Born In The USA" type of big. I have no self motivation when it comes to girls. I'll see a very cool girl. I can talk her ears off, yet I can't bring myself to ask her out or take it to the next level. If she's really cool and awesome, I would just simply talk myself out of it by saying, "Why would a really cool girl like that want to hang out with a dork like me?" It also contains some of the old cliches. Danny is fond of the "full blown wow" line. It's very funny. I don't know if he's making fun of it or if he likes it. That one was in contention for the new Lately David record, but didn't make the cut. Deadlines probably prevented it. It's okay because it worked well enough here.

JW: Some gals like dorks, I understand.

TB: There's hope for me, then.

JW: "Burning Bridges" kind of reminds me of your "Drowning" song from the first album. Similar darkness and mood.

TB: Only way better. Maybe I figured out how to write that type of song. That one came out entirely in Rusty's production. He added so much to that song. It was very simple and there wasn't much to it. The stuff he added was perfect. I love that song now. It's all about being involved in something you shouldn't be involved in and facing the results. You've got to leave behind the old shit in order to deal with the new shit.

JW: Lyrically, it's probably similar to the other songs, but you just played it more creepily. Makes me wonder if you could make some of your sunnier number gloomy if you wanted to.

TB: I don't know. I've never tried.

JW: Not that you should, just an observation.

TB: It's an interesting thought. Who knows? Perhaps years from now, when I am bored with doing the same songs I will reinvent them. It works for Dylan.

JW: "Hope You're Doing Fine"--would you call this a "mean" song? It's almost like "Little Miss Can't Be Wrong," reminds me of it.

TB: I don't know if it's mean. It tries its hardest to be mean, but in the end, I think he really wishes the other person in the song that she is doing well. When we get mad or upset with another person we might say and wish horrible things, but in the end, we still love them and only want the best for them. This is probably a guy who just got dumped for another man and he's really pissed about it, so he wishes all the worst for his former lover. In the end, however, he still cares for her and hopes that she is fine. I was really happy with the way the lyrics in that song turned out. Perhaps making the new guy a friend of the singer's was a little too much, but the rest of it I like. Then again, he may just be being sarcastic. However you read it, it can work.

JW: The "only friend stole my girl" is a tried and true cliche, so it works for this album.

TB: I don't know. The verdict is still out on that. If you say so. I just don't know if it works for me.

JW: Your liner notes say that "From Above" was written for someone. Is it prying to ask whom?

TB: An old girlfriend. Most of these songs were probably written with someone in mind. It's obvious who "Lindsay's Alright" is for. There are three specific relationships that I went through during the writing of this album, so they all showed up somewhere. "From Above" was written while I was dating a particular girl who I was obviously very much in love with. It still makes for a good little ballad, so I went ahead and included it for this album. She knows who she is and she knows the song.

JW: It's pretty. Of course there are strings. Here's where the strings come in.

TB: I like that song quite a bit. The strings were perfect for this song. They sound very rich.

JW: What was the idea behind "New Blues"? Make new blues?

TB: That's it. I was trying to play around with the old tried and true blues cliches. I have not a single blues bone in my body, although I enjoy the music quite a bit. I could never do straight blues. So, I wrote these typical blues lyrics and played the simple blues chord progression, but I did them in pop style. I don't know if the experiment works, but the song is pretty cool on its own.

JW: Well, you once did a song called "The Woman Blues." Sounded pretty authentic to me.

TB: You really dug that up!

JW: Yes, I'm anxiously awaiting the first album by Robert Brenton.

TB: Robert Brenton? We'll have to see. Maybe we can come up with something.

Anyway, about the blues, I don't know... Being in Memphis may be rubbing off on me.

JW: Most blues songs probably don't have those Mike Millsy backing vocals by Rusty.

TB: He added that in later. That was the one song I recorded for the record that I'm not sure was working. I told Rusty to cut it if he felt like it. What he added took it to a whole new level.

JW: Speaking of adding things, "Your New Prospect" was the only song where the additions seemed... predominant. In the other songs, I didn't notice much, but this one was thumping and ringing and everything, with the guitar sort of squashed in the corner.

TB: Yeah. The techno song. I never would have pictured it that way. I kind of secretly hope that Lately David does this one to take it to a completely new place. I like the way it turned out here, though. That's a fun tune. Breaking up again, only being really cool and at ease about it. Accepting it as part of life. The stuff Rusty added was very appropriate and it all worked.

JW: It's energetic. I like it in spite of itself. Maybe it's even the one I find myself most singing in my head. I think whoever invented the techno thump was onto something.

TB: I was really pushing for an Elvis Costello vibe. Of course, it sounds nothing like Elvis. It's a cool tune anyway.

JW: And then paired with "You're Better Off Without Me," the last song, which has a very minimal production. Nice use of triplets. Not enough of that in pop songs either.

TB: I don't think anything was added to that. Maybe Rusty had a hard time with the goofy time signature. You'll have to ask him. That's probably the most recent tune that was written for this record. A sign of things to come? I just knocked it off one afternoon and really felt that I was onto something. I never meant for it to have that odd time, though. I know Lately David will likely never look at that one.

JW: You don't much notice the time signature, though. Unless you sit and analyze it, but that's my job.

TB: That's probably why it was written that way. I was just playing what came naturally.

JW: It always reminds me of "Where You'll Find Me Now" by Neutral Milk Hotel, at least the opening chords. Not necessarily the entire song.

TB: That's a good comparison. I think I was actually doing "Imagine" by John Lennon with the 7 chord and the song just came out.

JW: So that's the last song, with the exception of the bonus track, which we've kind of discussed. I've never listened to it minus the bonus track, though. It feels a definite part. Like you just can't shut it off or something's missing.

TB: It's the crickets. I suppose the album is serious enough that you have to wash it down with a bit of fun. It was actually taken from a botched take of "Lindsay's Alright." I just tagged it on. Track by track with Johnny. Always a fun game.
JW: We love the track by track game. I've been playing it since you were wearing Member's Only jackets. Who are those guys on the back cover, by the way? Lindsay's friends?

TB: I wish. I have no idea who those people are. It's a girl I met one night online. I saw that pic and fell in love with it. I asked her if I could use it. That was a couple of years ago, so there's no telling where they are now.

JW: Ruling the school, no doubt. I've never seen such a casual, friendly throwing of the goat.

TB: Hey! That's my phrase!

JW: I'm borrowing it. Any last thoughts about the album? About the future of Tommy Burton? About the future of your non-solo stuff? Robert Brenton? The Donnas? Fun With Numbers?

TB: Well. I'm really happy with the way this record turned out. If the songs keep coming, it might not take so long to do another one. I can't stress how happy I am with this thing. I'm even thinking of getting out there and playing some solo acoustic dates. The focus right now is to get Lately David up and running. We're sitting on a really good record and, hopefully, it will find an audience. We're working in a new member, David Rice, and trying to get some live dates going, so it's Lately David, Lately David, and Lately David as far as I can see in the future. Robert Brenton and The Naked Donnas will happen when they happen. Rusty and I have been working toward getting the Fun With Numbers stuff ready for DVD. We are going to do quite a bit of work of getting that house in order, complete with commentaries. Distance plays a big factor, though, so we'll have to see what happens.

JW: Well, Thomas, I've enjoyed talking to you and I'm still enjoying the album. Good work all around. You and Grandaddy should hook up.

TB: Thanks. It's always great to talk with you, too.

JW: Now go watch The New Tom Green Show.

TB: I will and I will tape it.

That afternoon I did a separate interview with Rusty Spell. It was as follows:

Johnny Winters: Did you have trouble with the time signature on "You’re Better Off Without Me"?

Rusty Spell: No.